(no subject)

[taerowyn]

Watched West Wing last night, basically the only show I really keep up on. What can I say, it's nice to dream.

Anyway, part of the storyline was a school in Saudi Arabia burned down with 14 girls in it. The girls were not allowed to leave and rescuers were not allowed to save them because they did not have the proper attire to be seen in public and the religious police would not allow it. I was a little riled about Saudi Arabia being the target, but my dad was very upset (FYI for those who don't know, we lived there for 4.5 years in the early eighties.) I asked what was so upsetting and he proceeded to make this very good point (which I'm pretty sure will rile some of you.)


All of a sudden it's very popular to bash Saudi Arabia despite them being our allies for so long. The US is getting very up in arms about their treatment of women and minorities etc. Now he (and I) in no way condones this treatment, but he pointed out that Saudi Arabia has only been a nation for 75 years. What was our track record at that "age"? Let's see we'd just fought one of the bloodiest wars in our history against ourselves. We had barely gotten rid of slavery and discrimination was rampant. Women couldn't do very much at all except exist as property of their fathers/brothers/uncles. Basically, not that much better than the Saudis, if not worse. America seems to want everybody to be where we are and act like we currently do right now. It seems a little ridiculous.

Comments

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

You must not be up on your current events.

This wasn't a made up story. This actually happened a few weeks ago in Saudi Arabia.

You should probably let your dad know that his country of choice actually is burning its little girls alive rather than let them out in non-"appropriate" attire.

[taerowyn.livejournal.com]

And we have priests sexually abusing children for no reason, doctors being killed for performing abortions, etc. etc. I'm just saying "let he who is without sin..."

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

Certainly. But here that's illegal and is being prosecuted in courts. There, the POLICE were the ones keeping the girls in a burning building, and they aren't facing any criminal charges for having killed little girls.

You can say anything you like, but you can't possibly really believe that we face CLOSE to the same level of female repression or government-endorsed religious fanaticism here as they do there. Everything that CJ said on West Wing was absolutely true. And we (the US) don't say thing one to Saudi Arabia about their repression because "we need the oil". It's sick.

You should make your Dad aware of what is really going on there.

[taerowyn.livejournal.com]

Again, neither my father or I are condoning what happened in any way shape or form. Saudi Arabia is not my father's "country of choice," but rather a country where our family enjoyed time with some of the nicest, most respectful people we have ever met. A country full of very decent human beings who are being maligned daily in America.

Yes, the abuse here is legal, but what about all the children who died in mines and mills and countless other legal workplaces that existed as little as a century ago (when our country was over fifty years "older" than what Saudi currently is). There was legal slavery and the accompaning abuse, rape, and murder of those men and women that was perfectly legal at about the same "age" for our country as where Saudi Arabia is now. No, I don't "really believe that we face CLOSE to the same level of female repression or government-endorsed religious fanaticism here as they do there." That doesn't mean we didn't have our own horrible, human right infractions of a different kind.

I'm not saying they are in any way justified. I'm not saying it's not something that sickens and saddens me greatly. I am saying that you can not hold a nation of people accountable for the actions of their government especially when they have no control of their government. It's a messed up system, yes, but ours wasn't very much better and we did have some control of our government. So basically, I'm saying we should watch how hypocritical we get when we start condeming others. "People who live in glass houses..." etc.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

So basically, I'm saying we should watch how hypocritical we get when we start condeming others.

I don't think that the fact that 200 years ago we had slavery in this country means that it's okay for SA to do hideously immoral things, or for us to call them hideously immoral things. A spade is a spade. What they're doing is wrong. Does the US have a shining past? No. Does that mean we should shut up and suck up to SA, ignoring their human rights abuses, letting them burn up innocent children without saying word one?

Personally I think we should impose sanctions on SA until they get free elections at least.

The fact is that I don't think it's even legal for you, as a woman, to get higher education in SA. And they'd burn you alive as soon as look at your bare face. It's not legal for me as a Jew to even visit there. They won't let me in the country. Yes, I will DEFINITELY criticize them, and I am NOT ASHAMED of criticizing ANY country, including my own, for human rights abuses!

[taerowyn.livejournal.com]

I agree it's NOT ok for them to do hideously immoral things, it's NOT ok to ignore those things and suck up to them. Yes, what they are doing is wrong, but you should not condemn a whole country of people for the actions of their government. I do think that their system is messed up, I am saying I don't think that all SAUDIS are messed up as well.

I am not Jewish yet I could not "visit." The only people allowed to "visit" this country are Muslims because their government is tied to their religion. Non-muslims are only allowed in thecountry for official reasons (in my families case, my dad's job) It is completely their choice whether or not they want to let people into their country or not.

My point is that crass generalization of their entire country is what I am against, while at the same time being against the practices of the government. Criticize the government, not the country as a whole!

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

My point is that crass generalization of their entire country is what I am against, while at the same time being against the practices of the government. Criticize the government, not the country as a whole!

Okay, let's talk about the country as a whole.

The "government", meaning the monarchy, has made more and more ultra-religious rulings and instituted more and more ultra-religious rules not because they are ultra-religious, but because THAT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT. They are bowing to the religious right, not imposing the religious right.

I have yet to hear of a single anti-government demonstration in Saudi Arabia. Did your friends there try to challenge the government? Has there been ANY civil unrest? Even Osama bin Laden, hating his government, chooses instead to attack the US! Sure, we support the Saudi government (which we SHOULDN'T), but geez, wouldn't you think he'd bother to actually move against the government he claims to hate?


The only people allowed to "visit" this country are Muslims

during the gulf war they attempted to ban Jewish soldiers while allowing Christian ones. There's definitely a bias.


It is completely their choice whether or not they want to let people into their country or not.

I disagree with the idea that this sort of thing is acceptible. It's religious intolerence, pure and simple, and it's NOT okay. If they refused to let in any blacks, would that be okay? There is no freedom of religion there, which should be a basic human right.

Obviously not every Saudi is a raving looney who wants to lock girls in burning buildings- that goes without saying! But I don't think that a populance which is making no attempt to work for political change can claim to be innocent of all the actions of its government.

[taerowyn.livejournal.com]

OK, I've started typing this reply about five times and can't get what I want to say straight. So I'll just leave it at this: I am biased because I have had a personal experience with the people and find it hard to mesh that experience with what is happening now.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

I am biased because I have had a personal experience with the people and find it hard to mesh that experience with what is happening now.

I can understand that.

But honestly, does it not bother you that you are not even allowed in the country with these people because of your religion? Sure, they may have been nice to you while you were there, but they wanted to keep you out.

[zendanse.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I think that we should also clarify that the 'police' were actually Mutowa, self-appointed religious police. These men in Saudi Arabia have a reputation across the country as being backwards and unreasonable. The Saudi people realize this, and as Mutowa are easily recognized in their short thobes and long beards, the people take care to avoid them. The disastrous judgment displayed at the school was condemned in Saudi Arabia and the role of the Mutowa in society questioned further.

Civil unrest in Saudi? There have been several instances of civilian protest since the Gulf War, but mainstream America doesn't realize or understand this. The media in Saudi Arabia is for the most part censored. Satellite television has become the norm and so channels like CNN, BBC, and AL Jazeera has become readily watched, but if Saudi agencies are squelching news from their end, it's not going to make it to these networks. There have been many protests involving women's rights, and the royal family's bankrupting of the country. The protests have mainly been in Riyadh and Jeddah. I would also like to add that women took to the streets driving after the Gulf War. They were stopped and arrested by the government police but it is a key example of how the people do desire reform and are being held back by a totalitarian monarchy.

The Saudi people are like any other. There are pockets of ignorance and fanaticism, and certainly these pockets are larger and deeper than ones you would find in Europe or the Americas, but they are not all inclusive. The Saudi policy towards Jews is unfortunate, but originates from the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Zionism. I'm not defending the policy but clarifying the issue.

I think before one can pass too much judgment on a country and a people, they need to have experienced it firsthand. The Saudi people are flawed like any other, but some of the most hospitable, generous, funny, and well-educated people I have ever met. The government and the citizens cannot be lumped together. It is both incorrect and insulting.

[taerowyn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for clarifying in a way I could not.

[eyelid.livejournal.com]

also-- let me make it clear that neither I nor the writers of the West Wing feel that the US is, in the past or currently, a shining moral beacon. I think there are oodles of sketchy things that we are doing TODAY (trying to oust Chavez, for example). I think that the West Wing also focuses on the shadey aspects of what goes on in America in every episode.

That still doesn't mean that a SINGLE WORD of what was said about SA on the West Wing is untrue. And I don't think that we should be complaining because someone told the truth.

[shelbinator.livejournal.com]

I like what Toby said about halfway through the season:

"They'll LIKE us when we WIN."

Questions. . .

[micahchaplin.livejournal.com]

I do not mean any offense here, but I do tend to be good at playing devils advocate. Eyelid, is your dislike of Saudi Arabia based at all in the fact that they support Palistine? You mentioned that you are Jewish and I know that there is great tension right now between Jewish and Muslim nations (just look at the news), and I'm asking because more than few of your comments remind me of somebody speaking with blind hatred and not experience. You know, just an observation.

Let the flaming begin. . .

Micah